shoulder press with rotation

Im going to horribly oversimplify things here and the trolls will probably have a heyday with it, but here it is internal rotation happens and its not something my shoulders want me to emphasize or encourage. Together, these articulations provide What I dont understand is the defintion of *being* in ER or IR. Motion should not be confused with moments, as one can exert muscular rotational torque without rotation in that direction actually taking place (to create more stability, for example) Sorry. When the distal end of the kinetic chain cannot move due to friction, a point in the middle of the chain will move. From there you can activate lats for stability, follow a natural path up (if dumbbell), and lock out at the top in internal rotation. In this article are 6 great exercises to strengthen shoulder external rotation and the infraspinatus. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24828544 Can you really succeed or is there an IR moment? Now, if you dont rotate your humerus during vertical motion, then your humerus is still in neutral position in either plane. Would you mind making a detailed, step by step video in which you slowly, patiently, and thoroughly integrate your 80-degree abduction science and such, into a technically perfect and safe, step by step, loaded overhead press using barbell, and then again with dumbbells? Great dialogue gentlemen! Maybe something similar is happening to triceps, where internal rotation causes slower contraction of triceps (or delt) and hence allow more force generation. Bob describes what is in every good anatomy book (so everyone writing articles about the shoulder should know) -> in a joint with 3 degrees of freedom you can change your rotation by using the other degrees of freedom without ever rotating the joint (by simply flexing / abducting etc in 90 motions you end up in the same plane with 90 of rotation). Each day How to Stretch Shoulder Extension Learn how to stretch your shoulder extension Want better shoulder mobility? However, we arent supinating the forearm as our biceps fires but due to the overall fixation of the forearm with the locked hand (closed chain) position on the chin-up bar the contracting biceps as well as the lats (a humeral adductor and IR) assist in a close elbow IR position. And remember: neutral positions dont change with strict vertical motion; they only change when there is also or solely a horizontal component to the motion. This is what prompted my article How much strength is enough?. Why the hell did I ever stop doing them to begin with? I myself have felt guilty b/c my elbows flare, and yes, my shoulder internally rotates on my bench press. Do you mean tuck the elbows while they are still aligned under the bar, as in bringing the bar lower on the chest with a vertical elbow, much like a vertical tibia on a SQ? This is strict abduction or flexion, respectively. On the gymnasticsbodies post by RandomHavoc, he is saying that, as you hang, you should create torque in your shoulders so that, if the bar were malleable, your palms would turn to face each other. I have enjoyed the conversation as I enjoy a good thought process anytime. Or is IR the most congruent position at 180. These will likely be related to bony anatomy and other variables.. (Wait, what? 3. I frankly realized that I dont understand the intention of the technique, EXACTLY how to apply it, the underlying rationale; and if its something to even worry about in the absence of pain. Again, I may be not grasping their intentions fully, though! Using a Compex unit or other FNMES product has been the most useful tool in my arsenal to accelerate that process. This is one of the questions that I am posing to the S&C braintrust at large, and this query is expressed directly in the article. http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/64/8/1214.long Muscles targeted:Shoulders, as well as the upper back, triceps, and core. So if the wrist stays above the elbow, as in the Arnold press, the humerus does NOT rotate. Bob, your last paragraph is how I read it as well, creating an isometric torque. Reading Boris from SQuat RX call for do the Fonzie, reading break the bar about a million times, etc. When mining for gold, dont miss the other jewels that will stare you right in the face. MobilityWOD savant Kelly Starrett is probably the most current and well-known proponent of externally rotating the shoulder to provide maximum overhead stability. Many will point to the fixed bar forcing internal rotation as a shoulder risk, and advocate using the rings, to let the shoulder move naturally, i.e. band standing rotational rotation anti hold exercise resistance serve power strength What say you, 2005 world champion Dmitry Klokov? On the wrist/elbow alignment part of the equation: If you lock out the elbow with arms in any position, overhead, straight out in front, down to the sides, in any plane etc. We should strive to be the best coaches that we can be but that said, I think at times we forget that we are using the principles of weightlifting, powerlifting, etc. In addition to creating external rotation of the shoulder joint, the infraspinatus also helps to guide the motion of the humerus on the shoulder blade when lifting overhead. Chest up! morphs into keep the ribcage down , and so on. Further, we will then seek out confirmation of our own personal experience by a recognized expert who has also come to the same conclusion. I believe that there are potentially different ways to set up, cue, and perform lifts effectively and safely. Sure, go ahead and test yourself right now. Moving the humerus from one of these planes to, or through, other similar planes can be designated horizontal motion. Tom, you seem highly knowledgeable. The difference in shoulder rotation at completion may be a matter of less than 35-degrees, but the process of getting their is now a big-time different move. This wide range of mobility, together with elbow motion, allows positioning of the hand anywhere within the visual work space., The glenohumeral joint is described as having three degrees of freedom: flexion/extension, abduction/adduction, and rotation. sometimes we just need to do the best we can and are more often than not, are still successful. To address your next post hold a barbell directly overhead with your arms fully extended and try to IR your humerous. Strong shoulders don't just give you nice arms they can help prevent injuries too! Youthful, healthy folks with ample mobility and alignment can probably afford to/benefit from emphasis on internal rotation (Chinese weight lifting pros?).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2823194/pdf/ORT-1745-3674-80-451.pdf 7. All shoulders have to move differently and stretching won't fix every problem. An active shoulder (shrug, or scapular elevation/upward rotation) seems to be espoused when producing internal rotation muscle torque, whereas a packed shoulder (limited scapular elevation) seems to be espoused when producing external rotation muscle torque http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3010321/pdf/nihms243545.pdf Olympic weightlifters go overhead all the time; its in their bylaws! Something I never hear discussed. E.g. There is a guy on BCs Facebook page who said that he felt guilty for ending up in IR at the top of an OHPR. This limitation is due to impingement of the greater tubercle of the humerus on the acromion process and tension in the inferior glenohumeral ligament (28). Its great to see an article discussing joint motion and questioning conventional wisdom! Given that full range, you can now say if the orginal position was closer to the max IR or max ER. I also see how a supination moment as part of a larger rotator cuff tug of war might better help keep the shoulder wedged in the capsule. Have you ever heard of the Arnold Press? Of course, your humeral proximity to neutral tells you NOTHING about whether you are near end range IR or ER, as this does change with vertical motion because of shoulder anatomy. The acromion is compressing against the insertion of the RC mm. 1. Shrug Or do you mean tuck the elbows completely underneath and to where they are positioned below the bar, as in a skull crusher exercise/ California press kind of deal? So, I propose the following definition for determining the extent of rotation. However Mid range pressing can be locked in with external rotation with no issue. 3. Neither of these things work for me. 4. So much to say yet I want to keep this as short as possible. Now, if you hold your arm in a sling position you will be in adduction/internal rotation. If so, why not just stay in pure extension neutral the whole time? However, just like the ankle joint has a moment, isnt there a force at the ulnar and radius that may be compensatory to an IR moment at the shoulder vs. actual shoulder IR occurring? Finally, meet Fred Koch and his skeleton, George. For the sake of this discussion, I dont know if you read the shoulder packing discussion that I wrote a couple of years ago, it is linked to the top of the article if you are at all interested, (and Im not suggesting that you should be, ha ha! 180 degrees of arm elevation is due to a combined 120 degrees of humeral elevation and 60 degrees of scapula rotation which is dependent upon the scapula force couples as well as the rotator cuff/deltoid force couple But this is different than an actual elbow turning, supinating action, that if you somehow dont achieve, then youve allegedly compromised the efficacy of the kinetic chain! Heres the schema that I found myself working from, but frankly I dont know if this is how PT folks, and gymnastics folks, etc. You are in neutral for that plane, no matter how you got there. 6. I agree that this is tricky as I am providing an opinion as well. If greater forces were recorded under his thumbs so that he could break the bar then the direction of his generated forces would be vertical and angled and are not applied maximally and efficiently to the barbell to move it vertically. your shoulder is going to grind into some ligaments unless this happens, or this is the position where bones fit together the best. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657311/pdf/JOBOJOS9120378.pdf Tom, thanks. On lifting technique: First issue is simply being in position to exert maximal vertical force. Often times I do apply SAFE modifications that are necessary during training resulting in variations of lifting techniques and still conclude the training program with success.